The_Reverend 1300cc Superstar
Joined:
Wednesday, February 16, 2005
Posts: 1078
Location:
Coventry: Why?
United Kingdom
Funny, when I was small attendance was monitored by use of a "register" as they used to be called with persistent skivers beig placed on a system of class by class registration. Seemed to work well enough.
This is just technology for the sake of and suits Blair's style of government to the ground; technology driven, expensive to implement properly and doomed to final failure. Lets hope El Gordo has more sense.
--
Semper in excreta somus solus profundum variat
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 18:05:10
the_ox 1300cc Superstar
Joined:
Saturday, October 30, 2004
Posts: 8803
Location:
London
United Kingdom
Some schools already use biometrics for logging into classrooms and the data goes onto a national database because of the "data protection act" My arse its big brother people.
A few of us have stopped our children being "swabbed" by the school nurse, as its a sneaky way of collecting DNA samples.............you have been warned!
--
Try being truthful, its the thing to do
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 21:55:37
Assamite 125cc Learner
Joined:
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Posts: 27
Location:
Bristol
United Kingdom
Well there are positives and negatives to this type of thing... sadly the negative will always be taken to heart first!
FREE country does not exist if you want to be FREE of terrorism and immigrants and have a efficent and pro-active way of sorting our crimes like rape or murder or even good old house hold theft... you trade some of your freedom in order to provide a general level of safety. There are the age old arguments for and against this type of thing and to be honest I dont see any problems with it provided the information is used correctly, and for those "PRIVACY" spouting idiots just wake up to the fact there is no such thing as private in this digital age. Every call, every mail, every website, evey phone call, text, MMS you send, and bloody SPACS camera you pass ALL record your ass. What you didnt think TAX discs had readable barcodes for the DVLA's convenience did you?
DNA is just another item of information to be recorded... and I am 110% sure if you have a daughter and she was raped you would rather have DNA to trace the guy down than be told... I'm sorry the DNA doesnt match our database.
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 22:16:36
the_ox 1300cc Superstar
Joined:
Saturday, October 30, 2004
Posts: 8803
Location:
London
United Kingdom
So if its so bloody good, why does it not work?
Recent example DVLA "We know where you are" In that case find the F**king terrorists with mobile tracing, their comrades sending emails.
All it is good for is trapping the average joe going about his business, because he can be "traced" and be fined or imprisoned.
If you do not give the database the right info you have beaten it!
How many Al-Hussains we got now registered on phone lines broadband ect?
--
Try being truthful, its the thing to do
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 22:49:00
Assamite 125cc Learner
Joined:
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Posts: 27
Location:
Bristol
United Kingdom
Not argueing the system can be beaten when the collection method is flawed but it's pretty hard to fake a DNA trace (currently) compared to fingerprints that can be faked as easily as a passport.
In either case the point remains there is no such thing as a free country if you want any safety/security and while your complaining about those that did beat the system you should compare it to the number that dont, and why complain about the fact they are trying to collect this type of information when I would put £500 on the table I could get enough information from someone on the street to fake their identity and they wouldnt think twice of handing it over willingly! A feat I have proven in penetration tests of so called "secured" corporates time and time again.
Also remove the blinkers from the pure identity issue and think DNA includes a blood type trace which may aid general blood or organ donors, could also be used to check for some genetic level defects, ever considered that maybe when some of the tin box ***FILTERED WORD*** s crash cars on the motorway and smash their head in the guys I work with who have to pick that mess up might be able to ID the victim quickly without resorting to picking through blood soaked pockets?
Besides lets be honest if the goverment wanted to collect DNA covertly they need do no more than dumpster rumaging, or deciding to arrest you in relation to a "rape" crime where you can be forced to hand over your DNA as its in the "public interest" to rule you out (prove your data was actually destroyed!). Eventually regardless of how much people fight and argue and complain they will accept DNA records in the same way the Photo ID driving license is nothing more than an ID card, I suspect soon we will be like the US and requiring retena and fingerprint samples before you can even enter the country via air/sea ports.
Like or it not there is a vast wealth of information on each and every individual that vists this site (the server collects IP address, page visited, time, date, browser type, OS your using) and I dont see any banner here saying this information is collected or that you accept this information is collected (no offense to the owner who probably cant even see that info)... in the same way virtually EVERY site on the net keeps this information and the server owner can be forced to hand this information over without your conscent. Anyone here use 3 as their phone provider? If they do maybe they need to understand 3 transfer your information internally to their offshore offices (allowed under the DPA) and then resell your info in the other country (legal as not covered under the DPA).
The point of view regarding information collection is subjective but the fact remains it happens even if you dont want it to, and there is virtually nothing you can do to stop that...
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 23:16:14
Assamite 125cc Learner
Joined:
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Posts: 27
Location:
Bristol
United Kingdom
And just to clarify I know the topic is about finger printing, the comprison to DNA etc is just to show the information CAN be useful...
Besides if I wanted your finger prints I would just lift them from a hard flat surface (like a plastic coated text book) which is legal even without your conscent.
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 23:16:29
the_ox 1300cc Superstar
Joined:
Saturday, October 30, 2004
Posts: 8803
Location:
London
United Kingdom
You are of course correct in most of what you tell us here. My concern is as suggested, the ones that evade the system.
As you state a "bin raid" which I have observed and indeed had to "unlock" the said bin room is one way. This is however still classed as OVERT.
The COVERT monitoring seems to only entrap the decent and incur more taxes (Bin weight and type of waste. springs to mind) !
If this method of monitoring the net is so good, why do we have the monstrosities committed around the world without being detected? You say all SMS,MMS ect are covered, well use the evidence then or is it too much to filter and convert to a usable database in time to be admissible as evidence to the local or even abroad authorities?
?
--
Try being truthful, its the thing to do
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 23:24:30
the_ox 1300cc Superstar
Joined:
Saturday, October 30, 2004
Posts: 8803
Location:
London
United Kingdom
Quote " Besides if I wanted your finger prints I would just lift them from a hard flat surface (like a plastic coated text book) which is legal even without your consent."
Sorry, even thats not entirely possible. I have attended many a crime scene in my professional capacity with police officers and SOCO and they have been unable to lift prints from even the best items according to their text books. Many variables are needed to "lift" a fingerprint. Obviously I will not go into it here, you yourself should know of them.
Shall we call a halt to the debate until the next meet up ?
:D
--
Try being truthful, its the thing to do
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 23:25:08
Assamite 125cc Learner
Joined:
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Posts: 27
Location:
Bristol
United Kingdom
I doubt there is enough computer power in the world to actually process half the data thats collected on people in the same manor police/emergency services prioritise their resources to only deal with the priority causes... bigger issue however is the red tape dealing with actually arresting / persueing people "legally" which I doubt gets done as often as we are told... more likely we just shoot the guy and have done with it.
You can fly to a country that has no extradition agreement with the UK (china for example) after shooting someone here, and as long as you arent arrested en-route UK cant do a bloody thing about it... same as you can plan anything you like in China but it only becomes an offence once it can be proved you intended to carry out the plan once you set foot back on UK soil. (US Goverment likes to bomb the country your in until you leave which rarely works)
Plus you need to bear in mind most Terrorists groups come from extremely well trained foundations and guess who trained them up? Thats right good ole USA and UK special forces... training in covert and overt operations, evade and escape, explosives, inflitration and espionage... until they served their purpose and we left to defend themselves. Dont get me wrong im not saying you will ever catch every single person regardless of the system you use as any system can be beaten if you really want to, but it's like securing your house...
You put up a good system (not fool proof), you lock your doors/windows, you have cameras, you get guards... 90% of thiefs will sod off to your next door neighbour who simply has window locks. But if you have something really worth nicking people will spend the resources to get it...
In the end the goverment simply has to wait for another 9/11 or London bombing to go "Hey we told you..." and the masses will submit... the DPA like many other privacy and identity protection laws are good as a foundation but rarely ever implemented other than in a tick box format to please auditors.
Though 1 piece of information I really think shouldnt be collected by police relates to their producer paperwork... what difference does it make HOW many children you have?
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 23:42:00
Assamite 125cc Learner
Joined:
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Posts: 27
Location:
Bristol
United Kingdom
Quote "Many variables are needed to "lift" a fingerprint"
Very true... but like computers the forensics techs keep moving at lightning paces.
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 23:44:31
Assamite 125cc Learner
Joined:
Thursday, November 18, 2004
Posts: 27
Location:
Bristol
United Kingdom
Besides if we keep debating I might get ym website CC to match my bike :D
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-23 09:17:28
pillion_no1 250cc Rider
Joined:
Tuesday, July 10, 2007
Posts: 45
Location:
Bradford
United Kingdom
Wow, I'd pick both of you to do a debate for me, but i do agree with what ox said mostly because the system does only work for the ppl willing to have it done. I know it's the same with everything but some ppl will slip the system and it's usually those ppl who do the damage!
--
"I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.!!!!!!"
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-23 10:18:06
ton_up 1300cc Superstar
Joined:
Monday, November 08, 2004
Posts: 527
Location:
Lincolnshire
United Kingdom
How long will it be before our children are having their fingers cut off by classmates to claim their EMA?
Sounds extreme but so did a lot of things and now we live with them daily!
--
Rossi for Prime Minister, Toseland for Deputy
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-28 19:04:23
lvmikey5211 125cc Learner
Joined:
Wednesday, July 18, 2007
Posts: 14
Location:
benton
United States
i think you all made valid points!rember this,you can have safty or fredom!one or the other,if its safty then you will give up freedon in return!if its freedom then you will give up some safety!we in the U.S. have learned this,we thought the oceans protected us,it didnt!so how do we use the information? well now when we talk on line we know that we are being watched,we also know that what we do is information some one can use and often does!so as the story goes! weare giving up freedom for saftey!will we ever get all the bad guys and live happy ever after?? no at least not till we as humans change!will we do that?no its in our nature to be like this!so big brother will allways be here and we will be subject to this! 9-11-01.changed this and now we cant go back! ride safe!mikey
--
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-29 01:31:21
leatherlou 400cc Rider
Joined:
Monday, July 23, 2007
Posts: 70
Location:
Youngstown
United States
I wear perscrition tinted glasses but when i went to renew my driver lisc. get aload of this. I not only had to take off my glasses but they did an eye scan of my eyes! Talk about getting stranger the gov. is getting strange even over here.
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 10:58:18
1 
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-22 11:51:39
WTF? - Posted on 2007-08-28 19:04:23
